It probably means that the speaker is taking a Galilean approach to physics.
In modern relativistic physics, the property of having a time-like separation between two events is independent of observer, but the magnitude of that separation depends on the observer. And two events which are spacelike separated, while having no time difference for some observers, will still appear to have a non-zero time difference for others.
So the concept of a time (or space) “distance” (ie a specific value of the difference) between two events in space-time does not make sense without reference to an observer.
However in the case of two time-like separated events the time difference is nonzero for all observers, and if we restrict to inertial observers it has a nonzero minimum (which corresponds to the time difference as seen by an observer who experiences both events directly without any intervening acceleration or gravitational field gradient). But although this minimum is in principle computable by any observer it does not correspond to the time difference actually “seen” by that observer.
Tag: relativity
Given that the Lorentz transformation is symmetrical with respect to interchange of space and time, how does it lead to length contraction but time dilation?
This is a question that I am surprised to not have seen before (especially since I have had to remind myself of the answer more than once – including, I suspect but can’t be sure, from way back before I entered my dotage).
It is true that in one space dimension the transformation equations
are completely symmetrical with respect to interchange of
(and in the case of three space dimensions the same applies if
So what is the difference?
Well here it is in a nutshell.
When we measure the length of a moving measuring rod, we look at both ends at the same time and so are looking at the spatial distance between two events at the same time in our frame of reference.
But when we measure the time between two ticks of a moving clock we are looking at the time difference between two events that are NOT at the same spatial position in our frame.
So the nature of the two measurements is not symmetrical with respect to interchange of space and time.
I may add some more explanation and diagrams to show how this does lead to contraction for the rod length and dilation for the tick interval, but I wanted to get this off my chest right away – and also to address a couple of natural follow-up questions.
Namely, what kind of measurements would give the symmetrical outcome? Are there situations in which these others might be relevant? And why do we instinctively prefer the ones we do?
So, for example, what kind of time measurement would be symmetrical compared to our usual rod length measurement (and so would give a “time contraction” rather than the usual time dilation)?
Since the rod length involves looking at both ends at the same time in our frame, the corresponding time measurement would involve looking at the interval between two ticks at the same place. But how can we do this if the clock is moving? Well we could if the clock was extended in space, and if we have a long train of clocks that are synchronized in their own frame, then you can easily check that observers who look at the time between the ticks right in front of them will actually see a shorter interval than that measured by the travelling system – ie a time contraction.
And going the other way, what kind of measurement would give a length dilation? Well that would have to be the symmetric version of our usual clock measurement. And corresponding to our usual measurement of the time interval between two ticks at the same place in the moving clock’s frame, interchanging space and time would have us measuring the spatial distance between events where the two ends of the rod are at the same time in the rod’s frame. For example the managers of the rod might set off flares at both ends in a way that they, travelling with the rod, perceive as simultaneous. If we measure the distance between where we see those two flares then it will indeed appear dilated relative to the length of the rod in its own frame.
So now we come to the final question. Is there anything really “wrong” about these alternative kinds of measurement? If so what is it? Or is there just something about us which makes us think of what we do as natural and the alternative as somehow, if not actually wrong, then at least rather odd?
Here’s what I think (at least for now). The thing that makes us prefer to measure lengths in terms of events at the same time in our frame but times in terms of events at the same place in the moving frame is the fact that we, as blobs of space time, are much more extended in time than in space. (This is evident in the fact that we live for many years but do not extend for many light years in our spatial extent – or equivalently that in units adapted to our own spatial and temporal extent the numerical value of c is very large.)
So here’s a follow-up question. Could we imagine an entity which was the other way around? (ie of brief duration but of great spatial extent) And from the point of view of such an entity would it make sense to define measurements differently (as suggested above to achieve the effect of time contraction and length dilation)?
OR is it more just a matter of causality?
P.S. This is a question and answer that I have been meaning to post for some time, but was prompted to do so by Domino Valdano’s excellent answer to another question (in which she covers pretty much the same ground with a slightly different way of expressing the ultimate reason for why we measure as we do – which I may yet end up deciding that I prefer to my own). Please do read that one too!
PPS See also Mark Barton’s answer to a related question.
More TwinStuff from Quora
In the twin paradox where does the missing time go? If the twin turns back to Earth then turns away again their notion of now switches back to the past. What does this mean for the experience of the observer on Earth relative to the moving twin?
“In the twin paradox where does the missing time go?” I am not aware of any “missing” time. One twin experiences less time than the other but there is no gap where any time goes missing. (There is however an apparent speed-up of the Earth clock from the point of view of the traveller while turning around, and in the physically impossible case of an instantaneous turn-around that would look like a gap in the traveller’s understanding of what was happening “at the same time” on Earth; but in any possible actual scenario it would just be an apparent speed-up rather than a jump.)
“If the twin turns back to Earth then turns away again their notion of now switches back to the past. What does this mean…” Indeed! Does that sentence actually have any meaning at all?
Perhaps what that second sentence is referring to is the traveller’s idea of the time that is “now” back on Earth. It is true that when we accelerate away from something we infer a slowing down of its clock at a rate proportional to the distance. If the distance is great enough this effect can make the clock “behind” us appear to stop, but beyond that distance (called the “Rindler horizon”), rather than see it run backwards we actually just don’t see it at all. (And, yes, the Rindler horizon perceived by an accelerated observer is indeed related to the Event horizon surrounding a gravitational singularity.)
Proper Acceleration
The proper acceleration of an observer is that observer’s own sensed acceleration. Its description in terms of felt force would require an excursion into dynamics, but it can be defined kinematically if the observer is aware of some other frame which is known for some reason to be inertial. After acceleration of an observer, the previous frame of that observer appears (to that observer) to be moving in the opposite direction. So if the previous inertial frame (which matched the observer at time
Any observer,
Let us use
If
So the simultaneity space
For the case of constant acceleration
This approach is discussed in more detail in the Wikipedia page on Rindler Coordinates (see also this version on the anonymously authored ‘mathpages’ website, and this discussion by Greg Egan). But in the discussion below I shall take what I think is a more intuitively direct path, and try to say something about the case of non-constant proper acceleration as well.]
As judged by the “birth” frame (corresponding to
So, if we use
(where [+] is just shorthand for the relativistic velocity sum).
So we have the differential equations
The last of these is separable and so is easily solved (by cross-multiplying and integrating) to get
This then gives
Note: Here the integrated proper acceleration
For the coordinates, with respect to the birthframe, of
and
Note: By FTC&ChainRule,
This is in agreement with our previously derived formula for
In general, the above integral is not easy to compute explicitly, but in the special case that
And in this case we can invert to get
Which, as expected, remains less than
For the case of piecewise constant proper acceleration, say
So, for
with
(giving
and
(giving
Spacetime diagrams from POV of both twins in the finite acceleration versions of the twin “paradox”.
If properly worded this would have been a good question. From the comments attached to the question we see that the questioner is really asking for two diagrams, one showing the point of view of each of the twins rather than a single diagram showing the coordinate systems of both. And by the ambiguous condition of “constant acceleration” he means constant acceleration as perceived by the stationary observer rather than constant proper acceleration as felt by the traveler.
Of course the case of constant proper acceleration would be more realistic in the sense that it just requires the traveler to experience a constant g-force, whereas constant observed acceleration requires an increasing applied force (which would actually become unbounded as the speed got closer and closer to c). But for a limited time it is possible to keep adjusting the applied force so as to create a constant acceleration relative to the Earth’s frame and in that case the relevant part of the world line (in any inertial frame) is a simple parabolic segment (rather than the hyperbolic segment that would correspond to constant proper acceleration).
With the assumption of constant accelerations in the stay-at-home inertial frame, the spacetime diagram in terms of stay-at-home coordinates is just this:
Here we have a parabolic segment taking the traveler from the start event to where he reaches a cruising speed of , followed by a straight line segment or the bulk of the trip, then a parabolic segment for deceleration, a vertical segment for time spent at the destination, another parabolic segment for acceleration back towards home, straight line for the cruise, and the final parabolic deceleration phase.
In this diagram the coordinates are
What the homie actually sees is delayed by the light travel time from the traveler (just as what we see of a distant star many light years away is not what it is actually happening there now but what happened that many light years ago).
So to get the graph of what the homie actually sees we must look at the point on the previous graph that is the source of a light signal reaching home at time
We can get a graph of what the homie actually sees by tracing down each light-line from the
Now let’s look at things from the point of view of the traveler.
The vertical axis now corresponds to the traveler’s clock time
What the traveler actually sees at any event on his worldline is exactly the same as what is seen by an inertial traveler whose world line passes through that event with zero relative velocity (ie for which the worldline is tangent to that of the traveler at that event). Such a tangential traveler sees the values of
events that are seen by him at the time his clock shows time
When the traveler’s clock reads time
To find
The light signal that the traveler is receiving from homie at this event can be seen from the above diagram to come from
And
Events vs Instants
One of the most common causes of confusion among people who are trying and failing to understand relativity is the use of the word “event”. Physicists use this word in a way that is contrary to many people’s understanding – namely to refer to a particular point in both time and space rather than to everything that appears to some observer to have occured at a particular instant in time.
So many “refutations” of relativity include references to something like “the event when observer A is exactly one km from observer B”- which has no meaning since it involves more than one position in space. If such arguments used the word “instant” they would still be meaningless but it would be easier to flag the problem in that, because of relativity of simultaneity, what appears as an instant to A is not an instant to B.
Is special relativistic time dilation a real effect or just an illusion? Given two inertial frames each observer finds that the clock of the other runs slower than that observer’s own clock. So who is right?
This is a pretty good answer except that I wouldn’t say either of them is right if they think that their perception of relative slowness represents something that is objectively true for all observers.
Time dilation is a real effect on the perceptions of observers (with regard to the rates at which one another’s clocks are ticking). Neither of them is “right” if they think there is any real sense in which the other’s clock is objectively slower. But neither of them is wrong about how it appears to them, so it’s not really an illusion any more than the fact that if they are looking at one another then their ideas of the “forward” direction are opposite to one another. What turns out to be more of an illusion is the sense we all have that there is some absolute standard of time which determines which of two spatially separated events occurs before the other.